Why Don't I Love Jazz Guitar?
I love jazz. And I obviously love guitar. And I love learning and playing jazz on my guitar. But for some reason, I don't have the same enthusiasm for listening to most jazz guitarists. Wes Montgomery, Joe Pass, Jim Hall, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, George Benson, etc. are all mind-blowing, monster players, and I truly enjoy listening to them, but they never send chills down my spine like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, and many of the great horn players do. It really bugs me that I'd rather hear something other than my favorite instrument soloing in my favorite style of music.
I have a few ideas. I look at some of my favorite jazz guitarists: Nels Cline, Al Di Meola, Django Reinhardt, John Scofield, Marc Ribot, Bill Frisell, Mike Stern. None of them have that traditional, clean, bass-heavy jazz guitar tone. I feel like that traditional tone just doesn't move me. Not sure what it is, maybe a lack of dynamic control. Seems like horn players frequently explore their dynamic range from whisper-quiet to piercing-loud, while the conventional jazz guitar sound is stuck with a limited range that makes every note sound like it's at the same volume.
I'm drawn to aggressive, intense music too. A background in rock and blues makes it harder to see where more subdued players are coming from. Where are the Zeppelins and Hendrixes and SRVs of the jazz world? I've discovered plenty, but they don't play guitar (except Nels Cline). The kind of player I love the most sounds like he's channeling the force of a hurricane through his instrument. I hear horn players like this all the time, but I guess I need to keep searching for lesser-known guitarists.
Leave a comment if you have any recommendations.
20lb Cat is the Son of Dog (14 Dec 2007 at 9:11pm)
Yow. Boy, you been spoiled by Stevie Ray Vaughan. Nobody can get close, not even Buddy Guy, in exploring that dynamic range.
>>The kind of player I love the most sounds like he’s channeling the force of a hurricane through his instrument.
Daniel Schroeder (15 Dec 2007 at 7:49pm)
Check out Oz Noy
Mad Stratter (15 Dec 2007 at 7:54pm)
SRV was THE guitar hurricane!
even he knew it, just listen to the song!
"I like my pockets full of money.. my whiskey, gin and wine"
matt (15 Dec 2007 at 9:41pm)
I feel the same way. I love blues guitar and I love jazz, but there are no jazz guitar players that really move me. It is the horn players, and odd piano player for jazz.
I never really thought of Marc Ribot as a jazz player. I have kind of always put him in his own private musical category.
IG (16 Dec 2007 at 3:51pm)
I think it takes a lot of experimentation with sound and tone for a guitarist to have the kind of power that a horn gives, in my view. And frankly, many get too comfortable in a certain place (both physically and commercially) and they say there.
While I am moved by the traditional straight-ahead jazz guitar sound, I can see your point. And, the players that I've seen who are trying to "channel the force of a hurricane" are the ones who do lots of homework on sound and tone and using tools creatively.
One of the reasons I like Warren Haynes a lot (Gov't Mule) is because he has a jazz mindset and when you listen to him on improvisations (live), he really is trying to cut through and get as dynamic as a horn player could. He does some incredible things with a flanger, for example, to add punch to many of his grooves and improvisations.
But then discussing "jazz" is difficult because everybody brings a different perspective of what "jazz" is. On the one hand, jazz is the traditional sound of straight-ahead jazz, and listeners prefer the mellow-sound of the guitar. It's subdued, but, to some, that's the beauty of it. Subdued, yet creative and beautifully sounding in its own world. I think of Jim Hall and listen to him and, while he's subdued, he has an incredible imagination on guitar.
On the other hand, jazz is improvisation period. And, I think of guys like Warren Haynes, who just treat music as improvisation and just focus on mining it for all it has.
And then, you know, to others jazz is Kenny G. :)
IG
tony hogan (18 Dec 2007 at 4:07am)
I like this post, and as a jazz guitar player I get what you are saying. The emotional response each to player is different and needs to be. I've sat in the room and played with and listened one of the worlds greats, Ike Isaacs and I think the difference with the styles is about intimacy, a closeness. Many of the guitar players you have mentioned I don't like. But I lke some of them for different reasons. You must remember that Wes died some years back but his phrasing is gorgeous and his octave work is legendary. Jim Hall is a master of phrasing, making the complex simple, his tone is astounding, no it's not fiery but it is beautiful. Joe Pass is tremendous, his chordal solos are unmatchablem the Virtuoso album #1 is tremendous, and if you knew the tunes and listened to the way he approached the tunes from a different angle, it would make sense. No it's not hot, but the beauty of a woman is often not in the hotness, it can be in the angle of her face, or the movement of her body that takes you by surprise.
About ten years ago I was discussing the difference between the young players and the old and he said the difference is that the young players are hungry. About 30 years ago I was learning from a guy that was rated as Australia's top jazz guitarist and he said to me that he didn't mind if I went past him, because at that time I was interested in all the overtone modes and exotic scales that the contemporay jazz players were using.
A lot of our senses have been deadened by noise overload and it's easy to miss the nuances of music. If you want to hear something incredibly beautiful and outrageously sensitive get hold of a copy of an album by the Oud player anouar brahem from tunisia called les pas du chat noir, lock yourself in a dark room with it, turn the world off and you'll get a perspective of music that you may not have considered.
Dave (19 Dec 2007 at 2:15am)
In a way, I'm right with you. My all-time fave jazz album is A Love Supreme, and that is nothing but intense. I cannot point you to a jazz guitarist with that kind of intensity. I don't know if one exists.
I would suggest instead that the soul of jazz isn't intensity. Rather, it's cleverness. I've been watching the Jazz series again recently, and there's a bit where Sonny Rollins playing a gig late on the day before Easter, and when it turns to midnight, he plays "In my Easter bonnet, with all my frills upon it", then goes back to his solo. Each time I listen to Django, I smile more because I get more of the stuff he's doing. Marc Ribot is cool because (at least with the stuff I know) he plays the wrong note for the wrong duration, then plays another wrong note, not only in context of the first note but in context of the previous wrong note, and eventually it sounds like a cacophonous car-wreck, except it works. Ultimately, jazz is about being clever, while rock is about being powerful.
(Bright Size Life, which is Pat Metheny playing with Jaco Pastorius, might be something you'd get into. Jaco was a monster player, and the more I listen to Pat, the more I respect him.)
The only guitarist that receives more than a passing mention in the whole series, if I recall, is Django. And that's fitting. Listen to "Rock Around The Clock". The guitarist's a flashy player with a great break, while the sax player's not even following the changes. Then it was clear: if you wanna be the hot sax player, this isn't your world. Compare to the Count Basie band, where Freddie Green stayed in the pocket for 50 years without taking a lead.
You could just as easily say "I like rock, I like sax, but LeRoi Moore and Clarence Clemens just don't do anything for me." And they don't do anything for me.
And if you do find the intense jazz guitarist, let me know, OK?
tony hogan (19 Dec 2007 at 9:17pm)
Yes Dave, I think Metheny almost goes there but not in Bright Size Life. in the 70's McLaughlin and Coryell were on fire. If you want to hear something interesting dig up the Venusian Sunrise album by Lenny White, vinyl first track side two intersting duet between DiMeola and Corryell. This is not straight jazz guitar but many of the great modern jazz guys learnt straight jazz, they had to because in the theory of it is the skill they require. Abercrombie really bases a lot of his playing on Parker. McLaughlin studied with my friend Ike Isaacs, as did the guy who's top of the bunch Martin Taylor. And keep in mind Ike played in Grapelli's band at some point in place of Django after he'd died.
This music is not about fire, it's about someting else, and if you were capable of doing it PROPERLY you'd understand the shear beauty of straight jazz guitar. But even a lot of the famous guys sound terible to me, they just happened to make it famous. James Blood Ulmer is intense, but it's not straight jazz. I like Mick Goodricks approach, but a lot of players wouldn't, it's his thinking I like. Ed Bickert is the master, even Jim Hall would shake when he walked in, but it's about subtley not flash. You've got to keep in mind that you might be trying to find Chinese food in an Indian restaurant, and you may not find it. The in straight jazz guitar, the guitar's aren't on overdrive and screaming. Pat Martino when he did Joyous like was very good, but that's 30 years ago now, a masterpiece at the time.
And by the way I don't like Charlie Parkers music at all and I don't make apologies for that statemnent. Art Pepper did some good arrangements of his tunes. I had a long chat years ago with Ike Isaacs about it because I felt I was odd because I played jazz but couldn't stand the sound of it and was wondering whether something was wrong with me. He in summary said that what they really did was just turn their back on the audience and just blow and they said stuff the audience. And someone needed to do it for the advancement of music, but it sounds shocking to me. I prefer Sonny Rollins. Ike could play all that stuff, I never bothered but most jazz students thought they were cool if they played it. But what's good is that we all are different.
98% of jazz sounds like crap to me, but funnily enough I can play all that stuff. So much of it is elitist musicians trying to be clever, and that is not knocking the personalities, it's about the arrogance of intellectual musicians getting caught in the head, many of who are friends.
If you like good piano lisen to Rubalcaba with Charlie Haden.
I like Coltrane.
tony hogan (19 Dec 2007 at 9:19pm)
If you want to hear hot guitar, listen to the bluegrass players
tom (23 Dec 2007 at 3:33pm)
Wind instruments can modify their volume any time during the sounding of a note. Pianists and guitarists can not. As a pianist composing for orchestra I am realizing how limiting this can be for guitar and piano (also harp glockenshpiel and celesta).
Mark Wein (24 Dec 2007 at 2:41am)
I know you have mentioned George Benson, but have you heard his "Beyond the Blue Horizon" album?
tony hogan (2 Jan 2008 at 3:04am)
Without sounding like one of those people that say ' I like the old stuff'...i like a lot of Bensons early playing on CTI, I particularly like White Rabbit
Phil (7 Feb 2008 at 12:06am)
You mentioning of the fact that guitarists couldn't alter their volume in the way that wind instrument players can made me wonder if a volume pedal could be used to gain a similar effect- it would allow you to cut the volume back to a whisper, have the volume swell etc...While I tend to steer clear of pedals (pretty much regardless of style, though admittedly I do derive unnatural enjoyment from twiddling with amp settings) I think I may have to investigate this further...
Ricercar Extempore (7 Feb 2008 at 8:27pm)
As a guitarist in jazz, I always feel like we're trying to fit in in a place where we don't belong. We're an electric instrument in an acoustic format.
The more electric you get, the harder it is to fit into an acoustic setting.
Hence why most of the players you mention usually play fusion and/or experimental stuff.
That being said, I think Pat Martino's playing is pretty intense, no matter what sound he uses.
Ernesto
E Beingesner (20 Feb 2008 at 12:06pm)
I found jazz playing with fire when I found the Rick Whitehead Trio's "Live in Captivity" album. Defines great jazz guitar for me.
tony hogan (12 Apr 2008 at 2:43am)
Ricercar
I love Martinos beautiful chromatic lines
Gareth (14 May 2008 at 5:38am)
Interesting! I have a similar problem. I got into jazz via Mahavishnu Orchestra (Birds Of Fire), Bill Frisell (Power Tools/Strange Meeting), Coltrane (A Love Supreme), Billy Cobham (Spectrum), Sonny Sharrock "Ask The Ages" - all fantastic records, but obviously not jazz guitar in the 50's-60's sense
I love the sax players on Blue Note recordings (Hank Mobley, Joe Henderson, etc), but it seemed that the sound of an archtop never really did anything for me, I like my SRV too much!
BTW I find fusion guitarists often sound way too "noodly" to me - too cerebral and not enough swearing.
But I have found some archtop players I really enjoy - my personal favourites are...
Kenny Burrell - very bluesy and very soulful. Its a clean sound yet there is an intensity and commitment to the notes that shines through.
Alex Skolnick - to hear old 80's metal tunes reinterpreted in jazz style on an archtop is amazing. Throughly recommended!
Joe (14 May 2008 at 8:00am)
> too cerebral and not enough swearing
That's a great way to put it. I think I need something that frightens people too. That's Nels Cline all the way. Pharoah Sanders comes to mind as well. I love moments when it sounds like it requires every bit of physical energy from the artist.
Manolo (27 May 2008 at 8:53am)
The best : Billy Bean
bradley (8 Jun 2008 at 11:07am)
i was trying to get into jazz and couldn't find any guitarists that killed me when i started checking out GRANT GREEN. im surprised no one mentioned him because as far using the guitar to sing and playing it like a horn there's no one better. he's very rooted in the blues so his playing is extremely powerful and vocal at the same time. he learned mostly from CHARLIE PARKER and other great horn players as opposed to other guitarists. his TONE is unmistakeable. it both relaxes and grabs attention.
his straight ahead stuff is wonderful and his playing is totally about feel, carrying themes, and groovin with ridiculous poly rhythms. there is some intellectual in his music but his creativity puts it to rest as perfectly pure and natural. he paints incredible lines with tension and release notes and knocks you out with with the intensity he can get from running with one, two, or three common tones. gotta get THE Complete Quartets with Sonny Clark and check out (specifically) It Ain't Necessarily So, The Song is You, What is this Thing Called Love, and My Favorite Things.
He plays with Coltrane's rhythm section which includes McCoy Tyner on Matador, and Joe Henderson joins them on Solid.
Since you like fusion though and powerful guitar his FUNK cd's Alive! and Live at the Lighthouse are UNBELIEVABLE. That's the stuff that knocked me out and made me get into his straight ahead stuff.